Constitution continued.

[Guest Zicker]

I have never understood why people don't think diplomacy works. Look at North Korea, they dismantled their nuclear facilities without a single shot fired. Sanctions can have an effect on nations as shown with North Korea. I do agree that the US needs to pose a serious threat to be effective, but the issue is that may not ever happen again. Times are changing, war is changing. Iran is a serious threat, but invading would be utter suicide. Iran claims to have millions of suicide bombers ready for us, which I am sure is a largely falsified number, but just the idea of that needs to be horrifying. When you invade a country where almost the entire populace is against you, such as in Iran, that is when no matter how powerful you are, you can never win. Hence, in Iran's case we must use diplomacy, there really is no other option.

[Guest Devil-Dog]

We have tried putting sanctions on Iran. They refuse to budge from there program? We have treated Iran the same as we have treated North Korea. We have tried offering them incentives yet they refuse. Diplomacy only works for so long. Sometimes throwing the hammer down is how you deal with a problem. Iran is a serious threat, but it wouldn't be the same war as Iraq. The Iraq war is not a full out war...It's a war to win over the people and help build a government. War with Iran would be a full out war. With our nuclear capability and military strength it wouldn't be long before Iran would be hurting. I would much rather have diplomacy then war, but when diplomacy fails there is only one other option and that's to hammer down.

[Guest Zicker]

Of course i have the nerve to call the government the enemy. I protect my rights and when those are violated by someone, they become the enemy. My father also works for the government, and I entirely respect what he does and I respect what your family does too, but I will always question the government when they violate rights. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I know what I can do for my country, I can question it when it goes astray, I can protest it when it violates rights. Thats what it means to be an American, to help fix your country when it is wrong, to better it. Blindly following will never accomplish anything. This country was built upon the fact that the ruling party was incorrect, and that it needed to be changed. Our forefathers changed it with a revolution, but I know I can change it with protest, debate and discussion. Devildog tread lightly. You claim you want this to be a mature argument yet you call us all worthless and then attack marky. I don't know your age, but with the way you are acting you are the kid, not me. Argue with dignity, don't resort to petty insults.

[Guest Zicker]

[quote='PFC.Devil-Dog=US=','http://clanunknownsoldiers.com/hq/thread/?postID=36359#post36359']We have tried putting sanctions on Iran. They refuse to budge from there program? We have treated Iran the same as we have treated North Korea. We have tried offering them incentives yet they refuse. Diplomacy only works for so long. Sometimes throwing the hammer down is how you deal with a problem. Iran is a serious threat, but it wouldn't be the same war as Iraq. The Iraq war is not a full out war...It's a war to win over the people and help build a government. War with Iran would be a full out war. With our nuclear capability and military strength it wouldn't be long before Iran would be hurting. I would much rather have diplomacy then war, but when diplomacy fails there is only one other option and that's to hammer down.[/QUOTE] Do you not understand? An Iranian war cannot be won. What do we do after we invade all of Iran? Leave? Attempt to rebuild in a country where we are considered the spawn of satan? War today will never be a full-out war as you say. Unless you propose an extermination of all the Iranian people, it cannot be won. The loss of life to just invade Iran would be insurmountable. They would throw every weapon possible at us, missiles, gases, everything. Diplomacy has not yet failed in Iran and it must be considered. And I enjoy how you say diplomacy has failed, yet our current administration and a presidential hopeful won't even talk with Iran. How can you claim there is diplomacy when no communication has even occurred!

[Guest Devil-Dog]

Oh it wasn't a petty insult. It was the truth. Like I said ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. Marky complains about the economy yet he's a strain on the economy because he's unemployed. So marky if you want to help the U.S. economy go and get a job. Pretty simple...it's not an insult it's reality. As for you...Go ahead and protest. debate, and discuss. That's one of YOUR rights as an American. That's what our military fights for. The ONLY right you have ever mentioned to have lost is your right to privacy. Well I can counter that by saying what Ive already said numerous times. If it wasn't for the government snooping around we would have more crime and terrorism on the streets of America. How else would the government figure out things? There job is tougher then you realize, but all you care about is yourself. Your a selfish person who seems to only care about what YOU want. If your privacy has to be invaded to keep America secure are you ok with that? I sure as hell am because i have nothing to hide and I'm more concerned about my country then my privacy. Once you grow older you will realize the world doesn't revolve around you. Your personal life has NEVER been affected by the government yet you choose to come on here and complain? There's soldiers out in the front lines wanting to come home to there family and kids and your crying about this? You need to get your priorities straight and open your eyes to what you have. Your lucky to have so many freaking rights. Id have to say America has some of the worst whiners in the world. No wonder people think badly of us. We have all these rights yet we find ways to b!tch about it because it's not perfect. It's pretty sickening to know I will be fighting for people like you....who don't appreciate the rights we have and the very rights are men and woman die for. Your always finding something to complain about...sad deal.

[Guest Zicker]

Its ironic how you mention that the soldiers are waiting to come home, yet everything I have mentioned has been against the war. If things were the way I wanted, the troops would be home with their families right now, maybe even participating in this discussion. I know I am lucky to have the rights I have, yet they are being taken away. Then you claim I should just shut up about it? I don't think so. This America you talk of is one where every street is a check point, where we are constantly being watched because its for our safety. Have you ever read 1984? That is what is going to happen. Privacy is a basic human right. All humans deserve it, and when it is taken away people need to protest. You obviously don't appreciate the rights you have because when one of the most basic ones is taken away you don't care. You let them take it, not only that you support them when they do. Go live in a country where there is no privacy, then maybe you will appreciate it. Let me know when you appreciate the rights you have, until then this is over. This topic should be closed, mature discussion was gone long ago.

[Guest gamerk2]

Time for the debator to jump 1: Regarding WMDs: There is no question that WMD's were, at least at some point, in production. The question is this: Even when the Bush administration told the weapons inspectors where to look, they couldn't find anything. We also later learn that the main source for information on Iraq (curveball), was not only lieing, but had already been to several other countries beforehand (notably, Enland's MI5 branch), and no one else believed a word he said. On the economy: I'm one of the lucky ones; I'm making $50,000 right out of college, and my family makes 4x that amount. That being said, others i know are not so lucky. House values, which far too many invested in, are dropping like a stone, and credit is near impossible to come by. The one thing keeping the economy going, is for the most part, business, while not expanding, are able to hold onto their current employees. But no compnay in America right now can survive extended periods of $4 for gas. On Iraq: Iraq proves Bush (41) was right for not going in during the first Gulf War. About 90% of the country is OK, its the parts that contain both Shia's and Sunni's that have the issues. The US's job is essentially to keep the two away from eachother. Major cites have been completely razed, and yet the US still can't get a handle on all the insurgents in the country. The reason Sunnis are so upset is because they have no chance of ever having power under a Democratic system. The Shia's have 60% of the population, Sunnis about 25%, and the Kurds have about 15%. What you get with free elections with this breakup is one party rule, which is exactly what we came in to remove. If Democrats suddenly were only 25% of the population, and 2/3 of congress and the President were always Republican, do you think we would be any better off? Now that Shia's run Iraq, there is a good chance they will align themselves with Iran, which looks to be the next target on Bush's list (BTW: When Bush mentioned the "Axis of Evil", he had 3 wars in mind, Iraq first, which would be the easiest, then Iran, then North Korea). Also note: The only reason the US can have troops in Iraq is because of a UN mandate giving us permission, which expires Dec 31, this year (and has an ammendment which says the mandate can NOT be extended). Thats why Bush is so desperate to sign a new Staus of Forces agreement with Iraq, so the US can leagally keep troops there. The problem is, that so far the Iraqi PM refueses to sign the agreement without a withdrawl date included, which Bush has so far refused to agree to. If no agreement is signed by Dec 31, and US troops are still in Iraq, we instantly become an Invasion force instead of a Liberation force. Should that happen, violence will pick up again. Also note: one of the reasons that violence in Iraq has cooled down, is because of the extra troops stationed there. These troops can not be kept their indefinatly, and is stretching the army's reserves to the breaking point. Case in point: In the past week alone, there have been 3 reported deaths of returned veterens commiting suicide as a result of Post Trumatic Stress Syndrome, including one where I live on long island. Yet Bush and Mcain (despite what they say), were against the new GI bill, which among other things increased medical benifits to veterins, becuase it was "too costly". At the signing, bush, of course, gives his partys canadate credit for a bill he not only tried to kill, but refused to show up for the vote for. On the economic side of the war: sand does horrible things to machineary. With normal use, most tanks can last 20 years with good maintenence. Under constant use in a desert environment? It will cost the US over $100 billion to replace all the machinary that has worn down as the result of the war. People who say that the economy is OK, and Iraq isn't as bad as most everyone who is NOT a republican says spends far too much time watching Fox News. Also: If you are age 16-40 and support the war, I challenge you to go to your nearest army recruting center, get a gun, and go overseas. I'm tired of hearing people my age saying they support the war, but refusing to do anything to help out with it. ...I'm done for now, but I'll check on this thread in a day or two.

[Guest DarkSkyBlade]

[quote='gamerk2','http://clanunknownsoldiers.com/hq/thread/?postID=36364#post36364'] Also: If you are age 16-40 and support the war, I challenge you to go to your nearest army recruting center, get a gun, and go overseas. I'm tired of hearing people my age saying they support the war, but refusing to do anything to help out with it. [/QUOTE] I fall in that range. However, there are other, less extreme, methods of supporting any war.

[Guest Devil-Dog]

I don't appreciate my rights zicker? Are you an idiot? I will be fighting for my rights as well as yours and everyone else in this nation. You really have the nerve to say I don't appreciate my rights? I went into the Marine Recruiting station 5 months ago to sign my life away for 4 years because I wanted to serve the country I love so much. Don't you dare accuse me of not appreciating my rights. This is beyond a debate..now your just pissing me off.

[Guest 1ggy]

Hey, now you know how we feel after you called us all a bunch of ****y little whiners for the past 9 pages, not to mention when you say we don't love this country and all that other stuff, just because we know what our rights are and would rather be free than allow our government to take away all of our rights in the name of "safety."

[Guest BG.Darmine]

i suggest some of you not turn this in to a flame thread or it will end very quick!

[Guest Rewind]

this war is not for nothing and is not about lies so dont say that soldiers Died and were lied to. Saddam had WMD. hes was using them against his own people for years. Causing death and a high cancer rate. The war started against afghanistan. But it was a war against terrorism. Iraq was a threat and we needed to act before we would be. otherwise you inncoent citizens would of died on our own grounds because they would of continued to attack us. I believe BUSH and the ADMINISTRATION did there best. And war had to happen. The service men and women did not die for nothing they died for you. While you sit in your chairs and eat ice cream. They volunteered for the military and if we didnt have these heros. We would of had a draft you would of been forced into the military. So for that i THANK THESE MEN AND WOMEN WITH ALL my heart and respect them aND would call them my heros.They leave there families behind and go fight. Some have wifes that are pregeant and some haves kids but that doesnt stop most of em. They do there job. And some of us sit here and bicker about this.

[Guest RET.CW5.Ward]

The Iraqi PM might say he doesn't want or need US forces but I beg to differ that he does infact need and want us. He just likes to show off to the news and other world leaders to have them belive he doesn't and thats a fact. He wouldn't have a Military Police PSD Team just for him if he didn't. The Iraqis went tought years under Saddam having him "Lead" them but they have never had to do it them selves so there afraid to take that step. I see it on every mission I go on, there getting better but it will take more time.

[Guest Marky]

i dotn think we should be there. i think that bush and cheney and co, lied to everyone. yes, he had WMD, yes he gassed the kurds, but there has not been 1 shred of evidence of WMD. then theres public opinion, and this is a democracy, not a state where bush and cheney do wat they want, but amazingly theyve gotten away with it. 7 out of 10 americans want us out of iraq, im 1 of them. if not for my back id be wearing a uniform too. as someone said last night, if all the money spent on iraq were spent on healthcare we could give EVERY american healthcare for the next CENTURY its a waste of time money and most importantly lives that CANT be replaced also, the sad fact is that the arabs and everyone in the middle east have been fighting and killing each other for thousands of years, and its all gonna stop and be hunky dory because big bad america showed up? not likely! :razz: yes im a liberal and proud of it, i mean hell look whats happened to us in the last 8 years weve gone from a surplus to a deficit, the economy is crashing, weve gone from a national debt of 4 Trillion $ to NINE TRILLION $ and for what? just so little bush could sit in the oval office and say: "thanks daddy! look what i did in Iraq!!!" its time for another revolution IMHO :)

[Guest Ellenberg]

[QUOTE]this war is not for nothing and is not about lies so dont say that soldiers Died and were lied to.[/QUOTE] [b]No, we all know soldiers have died. But plenty of us believe that they died in vain because, it's an unjust war. What right do WE, yes, WE, as in America and England as the two major participants have to go in, bomb "terrorists" (and lots of innocents in the process), just because we nominate ourselves the World's Sheriff? Okay... well, who then Polices US? No-one!... Because no-one else dares. The Police Force has an internal department for policing the Police, after all.[/b] [QUOTE]Saddam had WMD. hes was using them against his own people for years. Causing death and a high cancer rate. The war started against afghanistan. But it was a war against terrorism. Iraq was a threat and we needed to act before we would be. otherwise you inncoent citizens would of died on our own grounds because they would of continued to attack us.[/QUOTE] [b]Sure, he HAD them, 'cept now he's dead, and now the country is, quite honestly, WORSE off than it was before. Sure, now he's not off killing "innocent" civilians (who, may or may not have been innocent, i.e. they committed crimes), but the "terrorists" and "suicide bombers" are causing havok when they lived in "fear" of Saddam's wraith. Now, of course, because of this we have to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan because if we don't - all hell breaks loose. On a side note, Afghanistan ISN'T "winnable", just ask the Russians.[/b] [QUOTE]I believe BUSH and the ADMINISTRATION did there best. And war had to happen. The service men and women did not die for nothing they died for you. While you sit in your chairs and eat ice cream.[/QUOTE] [b]You're right, they didn't die for "nothing", they died for the citizens of their respective countries. Just the same as the Iraqi soldiers died for theirs. Some of them died because they believed in the war, and what they were doing was right. Some died because the Military was the only viable option to live a decent life, some join the Military because they were desperate for money, or other benefits. None of them deserved to die, not even the Iraqi soldiers.[/b] [QUOTE]They volunteered for the military and if we didnt have these heros.[/QUOTE] [b]No, they ENLISTED into the Military, they didn't volunteer, because otherwise they wouldn't be getting paid a very good amount of money every month.[/b] [QUOTE]We would of had a draft you would of been forced into the military. So for that i THANK THESE MEN AND WOMEN WITH ALL my heart and respect them aND would call them my heros. They leave there families behind and go fight. Some have wifes that are pregeant and some haves kids but that doesnt stop most of em. They do there job.[/QUOTE] [b]Right, they do what they're paid to do. Some of us don't like what they're over there for, but that DOESN'T mean we don't respect and support our soldiers on foriegn soil. I don't think you can correct accuse a SINGLE one of us of not supporting our troops. I don't like this war, I strongly oppose it, but I will never, ever say a bad thing about the good men and women who are serving their countries.[/b] [QUOTE]And some of us sit here and bicker about this.[/QUOTE]

[Guest Marky]

far as i know were not bickering. just keep it cool guys.

[Guest 1ggy]

Saddam used WMD's against the Kurds in Northern Iraq, killing many innocent people. He also used them against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. Mostly mustard gas in these cases. However, he also made biological weapons. And that's the reason for the war, basically. An Iraqi refugee went to Germany to apply for asylum and claimed that he graduated in the top of his class in chemical engineering and right after college was hired to work for Iraq's top bio weapons expert making mobile weapons labes. The germans passed this info on to us, but told us it's probably a load of crap. When we investigated the informant, we found out that a) he placed last in his class and b) he was jailed for embezzling money right after leaving college. He made claims that directly contradicted evidence gathered by UN weapons inspectors. And we based our war off what this guy said, even though it was widely known in the CIA he was full of it. Plus, I read an interview with a lady who worked in the military during the planning stages of the war, and she told the reporter that Rumsfeld had threatened to fire anyone who tried to plan a way to get out of Iraq. Now that's only one source, but the way the administration has acted it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

[Guest RET.CPT.MacCullock=US=]

If you want to see what the Pentagon is telling our Congress about the war in Iraq right now, check [URL='http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/Master_16_June_08_%20FINAL_SIGNED%20.pdf']this[/URL] from DefenseLink.mil. As PFC.DevilDog says, things are not nearly as awful as the news pretends it is. Remember good news doesn't sell newspapers, TV ads, or political foolishness. This thread originally started about the right to privacy and apparently what the government may be doing about that during the war. War is always a threat to individual privacy, even more so when it is terrorists without uniforms attacking us in our private lives. It is hard to be excited about privacy when our Soldiers, Marines, and Airmen are out there dodging bullets to keep the enemy away from us. DevilDog isn't the only one out there dodging bullets for you and me who is a member of this clan. Another of my friends in this clan is an Iraq Army vet who suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. A third works in Washington DC for the Pentagon. I am frankly ashamed of some things posted on this thread for their sakes. Let's not have anymore loose talk about revolution. Folks take that for real and cause real harm you know. The only revolution we need is people who take "Love your neighbor as yourself" and their pledge to Liberty and Justice for All seriously, on both sides of the political aisle. That is why I am a Libertarian, not one of the powers that be. Privacy cannot be a priority as long as the same hypocritical politicians who moan about privacy are OK with killing babies for profit, claiming they can't be human yet because they look different from adults. Where I come from that is conspiracy to do a lot worse than violate someone's privacy, not to mention Bigotry for power and profit.

[Guest Zicker]

I entirely agree with Marky when he says this is a democracy. if 7 out of 10 people want out, then we should be out. The Bush Administration is not following the will of the people, which in turn makes them a horrible administration. I do think Iraq will be helped in the long run, maybe in 30 years they will be better off then they are now, but the US doesn't have the resources or manpower to stay that long without drastically hurting our country. Even if hell will break lose when we leave, that shouldn't matter in a Democracy. What the majority wants should happen, and the majority wants out.

[Guest RET.GEN.Kraor]

Ahh but you are incorrect, this is not a democracy, it is a representative republic. We elect leaders to represent us based on our opinions of their beliefs, character, and ability to perform the job they are running for. If 7 out of 10 people thought that rape and murder were ok and you were the leader and it was against your morality and character to allow, would you give in to their will or would you stand by your principles? You were elected by the people to perform a job based on your qualifications not the whims of society, If the people feel you haven't done your job sufficiently, they vote you out the next election. thats how this country works, and how it has survived for over 2 centuries.

[Guest Marky]

:) General you are truly a great guy to debate, and i do so enjoy them :) this is fun :) [quote]Ahh but you are incorrect, this is not a democracy, it is a representative republic. We elect leaders to represent us based on our opinions of their beliefs, character, and ability to perform the job they are running for. [/quote]true, but theyre doing it wrong, the politicians and such should be hung by their thumbs along the roads so we can march in the shade :razz: then we start over with neighborhood people, real everyday people, not some senator or congressman [quote]If 7 out of 10 people thought that rape and murder were ok and you were the leader and it was against your morality and character to allow, would you give in to their will or would you stand by your principles?[/quote]context general, context lol :razz: i would fight to the death to save a girl from rape, i have friends that have been raped and i would enjoy inflictuing true pain and suffering on the perps. i would always stand by my principles. [quote]You were elected by the people to perform a job based on your qualifications not the whims of society[/quote]but sir that is why we have a a representative republic lol, for the whims of the people. We the people sir, not we the money grubbing lobbyist senators. most of the senators and congressmen and such arent fit to pour pee out of a shoe with instructions written under the heel :razz: [quote]If the people feel you haven't done your job sufficiently, they vote you out the next election.[/quote]as it should be sir :) [quote]thats how this country works, and how it has survived for over 2 centuries.[/quote]indeed, but it neeeds spring cleaning, change, and a revolution and a TRUE govt BY the people, and FOR the people sir :)

[Guest Murph]

[quote='MG.Kraor','http://clanunknownsoldiers.com/hq/thread/?postID=36531#post36531']Ahh but you are incorrect, this is not a democracy, it is a representative republic. We elect leaders to represent us based on our opinions of their beliefs, character, and ability to perform the job they are running for. If 7 out of 10 people thought that rape and murder were ok and you were the leader and it was against your morality and character to allow, would you give in to their will or would you stand by your principles? You were elected by the people to perform a job based on your qualifications not the whims of society, If the people feel you haven't done your job sufficiently, they vote you out the next election. thats how this country works, and how it has survived for over 2 centuries.[/QUOTE] Actually the US is a Representative Democracy

[Guest Marky]

lol whatever it is :razz: semantics murphman semantics :razz:

[Guest Ret.Maj.Xander=US=]

[quote='MG.Kraor','http://clanunknownsoldiers.com/hq/thread/?postID=36531#post36531']Ahh but you are incorrect, this is not a democracy, it is a representative republic. We elect leaders to represent us based on our opinions of their beliefs, character, and ability to perform the job they are running for.[/QUOTE] lol I was ready to reply to Marky with that exact thing when I saw u said it already. Democrazy as I like to call it. But it has worked for us for long enough and I think it is a workable system. It is just recently politicians seem to care more about their re-election funds than they do the people they represent. Lobbyists personally I think are some of the most vile people on the planet, yet unfortunatly they and those who they work for, has more say about this country than most civilians. The system is getting too corrupt and unless there is a massive overhaul over a short period of time to change things (Congress to pass rules for Congress to follow...doesn't sound very likely), or possibly honesty comes back into fashion among our politicians, we are looking down a dark road in which power is controlled by only a few. "Political interest [can] never be separated in the long run from moral right" -Thomas Jefferson

[Guest Marky]

[quote='Ret.Xander=US=','http://clanunknownsoldiers.com/hq/thread/?postID=36551#post36551']lol I was ready to reply to Marky with that exact thing when I saw u said it already. Democrazy as I like to call it. But it has worked for us for long enough and I think it is a workable system. It is just recently politicians seem to care more about their re-election funds than they do the people they represent. Lobbyists personally I think are some of the most vile people on the planet, yet unfortunatly they and those who they work for, has more say about this country than most civilians. The system is getting too corrupt and unless there is a massive overhaul over a short period of time to change things (Congress to pass rules for Congress to follow...doesn't sound very likely), or possibly honesty comes back into fashion among our politicians, we are looking down a dark road in which power is controlled by only a few. "Political interest [can] never be separated in the long run from moral right" -Thomas Jefferson[/quote] i agree xander, reminds me of the star wars prequels ;) :razz: and may god save us from Darth Nader [IMG]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/mrky84/darthnader.jpg[/IMG] :-P